I think I agree with your exegesis here, but I'd like to get your thinking on what I feel is the more important Hell-related issue: is the punishment in Hell eternal?
To wit, you had written:
>> "You really want a God who pats Hitler on the head and says, 'You little scamp, come inherit eternal life'? (Is that love?)"
Even as an agnostic I'm on the same page, here — I think that a properly-functioning moral universe SHOULD include some postmortem balancing of the scales — but I think there's a bigger issue at play. When a lot of Christians express doubt in the idea of Hell (hypothesizes I) they're actually more bothered by the mainstream Evangelical notion of "eternal, conscious torment". (I think that a lot of these people would be more okay with some form of annihilationism, or a Buddhist-style many-lives-many-postmortem-punishments-all-leading-to-nirvana.)
So I, for one, would love to hear your thoughts on that! If you're interested in a spark, there's lately been some discussion of this on some other substacks I enjoy — Both Sides Brigade's "Christian Justifications for Hell Make Absolutely No Sense" (https://bothsidesbrigade.substack.com/p/christian-justifications-for-hell) and, even more deeply, Bentham's Bulldog's "Universalism: A Comprehensive Defense" (https://benthams.substack.com/p/universalism-a-comprehensive-defense). I'm not sure of the theological predilections of the first, but the second is from a utilitarian (and mostly secular?) Jew who thinks that the arguments for Christianity are quite strong.
Yeah, there are earlier drafts of this where I address universalism and annihilationism, but they seemed tangential to the question at hand, and I really try to keep these posts to ~1,000 words. Most weeks, more ends up on the cutting room floor than ends up in the piece.
If someone wants to see what I have to say about those, feel free to send me a question!
As a fellow attendee of the infamous Hell-Themed Birthday Party (did we meet? I don't think we did formally) and also a Greek Orthodox Christian, I can link up one of the verses you said was "a Bible verse about hell" with the Orthodox understanding of æonic (not necessarily eternal but going through eons) suffering (not hell, we absolutely don't believe in it because we have never had any use for it and don't use the word) and show you that it's not about hell. So the verse is 2 Thessalonians 1:9, and you quoted the ESV (the "Extra Special Version"), which was created by evangelicals who often delight in the idea of a hell and frequently imagine certain individuals, often many, many individuals, are roasting there. The ESV says, "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." This fits the evangelical worldview that there could be a place where the Lord is not. Which is so silly.
So the word translated "away from" is a little word and often has a locative meaning of something being away from something else, but that doesn't make a lot of sense here, so the Orthodox take it to mean "from" as in "because of," and then this verse reads (with a couple other savvy (better) Greek translations "They will pay the aeonic punishment from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his might." So the idea is that there is a punitive payment for those who do not know God and it's simply to be in his presence. Imagine having to spend the evening at a party with someone you hate and then just imagine that you can't escape that person's presence and you can't leave the party. It would suck.
Hi Christopher. We didn't get a chance to meet, but the people at the party who know you had a lot of good things to say about your philanthropic work (unless I have you confused with someone else? haha), so...good on you for that. :)
As to your comment, I'm sort of left wondering if you bothered to read my whole piece, since I end up mostly-endorsing the Orthodox view of the afterlife, and even link directly to a piece by an Orthodox priest explicating it basically identically to how you have here.
I have been known to do philanthropic work, so we must have heard rumor of each other, since I heard about your long journey to get to the party.
I did read your whole piece! I even read the linked article by the Orthodox priest to make sure he hadn't already clarified the meaning of 2 Thess. 1:9, and he not only doesn't clarify it but in a reply to a comment from someone asking about it, seems not to know the clarified meaning of the word I referred to. So...I did notice that you were enamored with the Orthodox view. Before I dabbled in philanthropy I dabbled in the Bible, which I understand you do as well. So I thought you'd appreciate the exegesis.
This is really good! Thank you for the reflection. I like that Eastern idea too. Reminds me I should give a crack at The Great Divorce. (And here’s my Lewis fan plug for The Abolition of Man. Good critique of subjectivist modern ideas.)
Great Divorce is the only Lewis novel I haven’t gotten around to. I typically love the guy, but a while ago I got completely bogged down in An Experiment in Criticism and haven’t felt the urge to read him since :)
While reading, “Huh, am I unknowingly in a Lewisisan hell right now being forced to read this Substack? Nah, I enjoyed that Dr. Seuss line too much.”
I think I agree with your exegesis here, but I'd like to get your thinking on what I feel is the more important Hell-related issue: is the punishment in Hell eternal?
To wit, you had written:
>> "You really want a God who pats Hitler on the head and says, 'You little scamp, come inherit eternal life'? (Is that love?)"
Even as an agnostic I'm on the same page, here — I think that a properly-functioning moral universe SHOULD include some postmortem balancing of the scales — but I think there's a bigger issue at play. When a lot of Christians express doubt in the idea of Hell (hypothesizes I) they're actually more bothered by the mainstream Evangelical notion of "eternal, conscious torment". (I think that a lot of these people would be more okay with some form of annihilationism, or a Buddhist-style many-lives-many-postmortem-punishments-all-leading-to-nirvana.)
So I, for one, would love to hear your thoughts on that! If you're interested in a spark, there's lately been some discussion of this on some other substacks I enjoy — Both Sides Brigade's "Christian Justifications for Hell Make Absolutely No Sense" (https://bothsidesbrigade.substack.com/p/christian-justifications-for-hell) and, even more deeply, Bentham's Bulldog's "Universalism: A Comprehensive Defense" (https://benthams.substack.com/p/universalism-a-comprehensive-defense). I'm not sure of the theological predilections of the first, but the second is from a utilitarian (and mostly secular?) Jew who thinks that the arguments for Christianity are quite strong.
Yeah, there are earlier drafts of this where I address universalism and annihilationism, but they seemed tangential to the question at hand, and I really try to keep these posts to ~1,000 words. Most weeks, more ends up on the cutting room floor than ends up in the piece.
If someone wants to see what I have to say about those, feel free to send me a question!
(I will try to read those links…soonish)
As a fellow attendee of the infamous Hell-Themed Birthday Party (did we meet? I don't think we did formally) and also a Greek Orthodox Christian, I can link up one of the verses you said was "a Bible verse about hell" with the Orthodox understanding of æonic (not necessarily eternal but going through eons) suffering (not hell, we absolutely don't believe in it because we have never had any use for it and don't use the word) and show you that it's not about hell. So the verse is 2 Thessalonians 1:9, and you quoted the ESV (the "Extra Special Version"), which was created by evangelicals who often delight in the idea of a hell and frequently imagine certain individuals, often many, many individuals, are roasting there. The ESV says, "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." This fits the evangelical worldview that there could be a place where the Lord is not. Which is so silly.
So the word translated "away from" is a little word and often has a locative meaning of something being away from something else, but that doesn't make a lot of sense here, so the Orthodox take it to mean "from" as in "because of," and then this verse reads (with a couple other savvy (better) Greek translations "They will pay the aeonic punishment from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his might." So the idea is that there is a punitive payment for those who do not know God and it's simply to be in his presence. Imagine having to spend the evening at a party with someone you hate and then just imagine that you can't escape that person's presence and you can't leave the party. It would suck.
Hi Christopher. We didn't get a chance to meet, but the people at the party who know you had a lot of good things to say about your philanthropic work (unless I have you confused with someone else? haha), so...good on you for that. :)
As to your comment, I'm sort of left wondering if you bothered to read my whole piece, since I end up mostly-endorsing the Orthodox view of the afterlife, and even link directly to a piece by an Orthodox priest explicating it basically identically to how you have here.
I have been known to do philanthropic work, so we must have heard rumor of each other, since I heard about your long journey to get to the party.
I did read your whole piece! I even read the linked article by the Orthodox priest to make sure he hadn't already clarified the meaning of 2 Thess. 1:9, and he not only doesn't clarify it but in a reply to a comment from someone asking about it, seems not to know the clarified meaning of the word I referred to. So...I did notice that you were enamored with the Orthodox view. Before I dabbled in philanthropy I dabbled in the Bible, which I understand you do as well. So I thought you'd appreciate the exegesis.
This is really good! Thank you for the reflection. I like that Eastern idea too. Reminds me I should give a crack at The Great Divorce. (And here’s my Lewis fan plug for The Abolition of Man. Good critique of subjectivist modern ideas.)
Great Divorce is the only Lewis novel I haven’t gotten around to. I typically love the guy, but a while ago I got completely bogged down in An Experiment in Criticism and haven’t felt the urge to read him since :)